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[Interview] by Jeffrey Po
The Most Venerable Pa-Auk Tawya Sayadaw, abbot and
master of Pa-Auk Tawya Meditation Centre, was in
town last December to give Dhamma talks at the
Pa-Auk Meditation Centre (Singapore).
Jeffrey finds out more about the Sayadaw's
monastery and what he teaches.
Good morning, Sayadaw, and welcome to Singapore. Can the Sayadaw perhaps tell the readers about the Saya-daw's meditation centre in Myanmar?
Pa-Auk Meditation Centre
comprises three monasteries near the village
of Pa-Auk, outside Mawlamyine (Moulmein),
the capital of the Mon State, southwest of Yangon.
I am the third abbot since Pa-Auk Tawya
Meditation Centre was established about 100 years ago. It occupies about
400-500 acres, and there are about 300 single dwellings, 3 dormitories, 5
meditation halls, an almsgiving hall, refectory, infirmary, library, etc.
There is a standing population of about 800 yogis. During school holidays
or festivals, the population increases up to even 1500 yogis. The majority
of yogis are Myanmarese monks, with a good number
of Myanmarese nuns and laywomen. There are about
150 foreign yogis, most of whom have ordained at
Pa-Auk Tawya. Almost all of them are from
South-East Asia and East Asia, with a few
Westerners. There are also a number of Mahāyāna
monks and nuns.
What is taught at the Sayadaw's meditation centre?
We teach according to the Pali Texts of Buddhism, and the purpose of our teaching
is for the yogi to attain Nibbāna. That
requires full and direct personal knowledge of ultimate mentality and
materiality (nāma-rūpa), which is vipassanā meditation. Such full knowledge requires
that one has developed deep and profound concentration (samādhi),
which is samatha meditation. To develop samatha, one needs first of all to train in morality (sīla). At our centre this means one needs first to
undertake either the nine precepts of a layperson,
the ten precepts of a nun or novice, or the Pātimokkha
precepts of a fully ordained Buddhist monk. Well established in good
morality, one then begins with samatha
meditation. If one is successful, one will attain what The Buddha calls the
light of wisdom (pann-āloka). With further
development, one reaches the jhānas, and
then the light of wisdom is very strong, very bright. One then uses that
light of wisdom to practise vipassanā.
Could the Sayadaw
please explain this light of wisdom further?
The light of wisdom is a
natural concomitant of deep and profound one-pointedness
of mind (citt-ek-aggatā). It is necessary to
develop this light, in order that one may penetrate to ultimate reality.
Unless one penetrates to ultimate reality, one cannot practise
vipassanā meditation. With the light of
wisdom one will, with four-elements meditation, be
able to see that one's body and other materiality is made up of sub-atomic
particles, which arise and perish with great speed. They are called rūpa-kalāpas. They cannot be seen unless one
has developed the light of wisdom - it is impossible. But they are not
ultimate materiality yet. One needs then to penetrate the rūpa-kalāpas in order to see the individual
types of materiality of each type of rūpa-kalāpas.
They make up the rūpa-kalāpas, and they
are ultimate materiality. Then one needs to analyse
the various types of materiality, in order to fully know with direct
knowledge which is which, and in order to see that each type of materiality
is without any permanent substance. One needs then to follow the same
procedure in order to fully know with one's own direct knowledge the
various types of ultimate mentality, and to see that mind too is without
any permanent substance. One needs then to follow this same process with
regard to materiality and mentality of the past, future, internally and
externally, etc. Only then is one able to fully understand with one's own
full knowledge that the world and oneself is made of nothing but mentality
and materiality (nāma-rūpa), with no
permanent substance. This is vipassanā as
taught by The Buddha. But many do not accept our teaching. Many Asians and
Westerners complain, and say the rūpa-kalāpas
are not mentioned in the suttas. This is correct.
In the suttas, The Buddha does not give such
practical details, only general guidelines. But if one knows the practical
meaning of the suttas, one will understand that
when in the 'Mahā-Rāhul-Ovāda' sutta, The Buddha tells his son to discern and analyse the space element, He
is referring to practical discernment of the rūpa-kalāpas.
Could the Sayadaw
please elaborate on the ākāsa-dhātu (space element)?
The ākāsa-dhātu (space
element) forms the boundaries between the rūpa-kalāpas.
And only when the yogi is able to discern those boundaries is the yogi able
to discern the rūpa-kalāpas. And only
when the yogi has discerned the rūpa-kalāpas
is the yogi able to penetrate to ultimate materiality, and analyse the various elements that make up the rūpa-kalāpas - for example, the earth-,
water-, fire-, and wind element, colour, odour, and flavour. Without
such direct knowledge, one cannot understand materiality, in which case,
one cannot develop proper vipassanā, in
which case one cannot attain Nibbāna. That
is why one needs to develop proper concentration (samādhi).
By concentration, The Buddha means nearly always jhāna
concentration and proper mastery of each jhāna
- first the four fine-material jhānas and
then the four immaterial jhānas. At Pa-Auk,
we usually teach the yogi to develop the jhānas
with ānāpānassati (mindfulness of
breathing) and then we teach them to use their ānāpānassati jhāna to develop all the other samatha
subjects taught by The Buddha - for example, the four sublime abidings such as loving-kindness and compassion.
How does a yogi know that she
or he has achieved a certain level of proficiency in concentration? A
certain level of jhāna?
This is what we mean by proper
mastery of the jhānas. It requires systematic
practice under a qualified teacher. For ex-ample, to practise
mindfulness of breathing, the yogi needs to concentrate on the in-and-out
breath as it touches on the upper lip or around the nostrils. The yogi then
needs to know whether the breath is long or short. Then the yogi needs to
know the beginning, middle and end of the breath. That is all, nothing
else. Once the yogi is able to know the in-and-out breath in this way, and
no other object, over a long time, there may arise
a nimitta, which means sign. It is a mental image
that arises because of one's concentration, because of one's perception of
the breath. With further development, eventually the breath object and the nimitta will become one. There is no difference. Then,
once the yogi can sit for two or three or four hours continuously over many
days without adverting to any other object, we may say that the yogi has
attained the first jhāna. Then, according to
The Buddha's instructions, the yogi needs to learn how to discern what are
called the jhāna factors of the concentrated
mind. And the yogi needs to learn how to predetermine the duration of the jhāna attainment, how to enter jhāna
and how to emerge from jhāna, and how to
discern the jhāna factors. The yogi needs to
learn how to do this with ease, and this is what is called mastery of the jhāna. Then the yogi learns how to develop the
second jhāna and the masteries of that jhāna, and so on up to the fourth immaterial jhāna. Here again, many Asians and Westerners
complain, and say The Buddha does not teach the nimitta
in the suttas. Again, this is true. The Buddha
does not teach such details in the suttas. But He
mentions the radiant light of the concentrated mind in many suttas - when He explains the practice preliminary to vipassanā.
How important is it to be able
to 'see' this nimitta?
If you want to go to Pa-Auk,
you need a visa. Without a visa, the authorities will not allow you to
enter Myanmar.
In the same way, the nimitta is the visa to deep
concentration, the jhānas. Without such deep
concentration, one cannot come fully to know ultimate mentality and
materiality with one's own direct knowledge, which means one
cannot attain any vipassanā knowledge, which
means one cannot attain Nibbāna. Then you
may decide for yourself how important it is to be able to see a nimitta.
How long does a beginner need
to stay in the meditation centre for preliminary instructions and practice?
That depends on the individual
yogi. Some stay only for a short time, some stay for a longer time, and
some stay for many years. Some only want to try a little bit, some want to
try more, and some want to attain Nibbāna.
How quickly one succeeds depends on one's pāramī
-the practice of morality, concentration and wisdom that one did in past
lives - and the quality of one's present practice. How far one wants to go,
depends also on one's pāramī. It is
because of their pāramī that some foreign yogis ordain as a nun
or monk, and stay for many years. Our foreign yogis usually get a
meditation visa from a Myanmarese embassy either
in their home country or somewhere else. They can get that visa extended.
We have volunteers who do all the paperwork.
One final question - are there
any sort of fees or charges involved?
The Myanmarese
government demands US dollars for a meditation visa, and for the one-year
extension of one's medita-tion visa. There are no
other charges. There are no charges for staying at the monastery. Some
visitors make a donation, but that is their own wish. Food, dwelling, and
meditation instructions, etc., are given free of charge - that is The
Buddha's way. For the welfare and happiness of all beings.
Thank you, Sayadaw.
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